In this episode of the Grow Fast podcast, host Mark Shriner sits down with marketing expert Jeff Wenberg to explore the evolving landscape of digital marketing. Jeff shares his journey from aspiring musician to successful marketing professional, detailing how he transitioned from doing voiceovers on Fiverr to becoming a strategic marketing consultant who helps businesses effectively communicate their value propositions.
The conversation delves deep into the critical aspects of B2C marketing, with Jeff emphasizing the importance of connecting with potential customers by addressing their specific problems rather than simply listing product features. Using real-world examples, he illustrates how reframing messaging can dramatically improve marketing effectiveness, transforming struggling businesses into thriving enterprises by helping them understand and articulate their true value to their target audience.
As the discussion unfolds, Mark and Jeff also explore the emerging challenges and opportunities presented by AI and large language models, discussing how these technologies are reshaping search patterns and marketing strategies. They touch on personal growth, sharing insights about habits, productivity, and the importance of understanding customer needs. The podcast offers listeners a comprehensive look at modern marketing techniques, blending practical advice with personal anecdotes and forward-thinking perspectives on business growth.
You can find the whole episode of The Grow Fast Podcast with Jeff Wenberg here:
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This is the transcript for this episode:
Mark Shriner [00:00]
Jeff, welcome to The Grow Fast Podcast where we talk with leading sales, marketing and personal growth experts about how companies can accelerate sales, optimize marketing, and grow their businesses fast. Let's go.
Jeff Wenberg [00:15]
Jeff, how are you I'm doing well. Mark, how are you?
Mark Shriner [00:17]
Awesome? Awesome. I think this is my last call for the day. So, hey, it's all good.
Jeff Wenberg [00:22]
That's always, always a good time of day. Yeah, yeah.
Mark Shriner [00:25]
Hey, whereabouts you located?
Jeff Wenberg [00:26]
I'm just outside of St. Paul, Minnesota. How about you?
Mark Shriner [00:30]
I'm out in Seattle, and I'm guessing right now. I mean, because it's mid summer, is it pretty hot and humid there? What's it like?
Jeff Wenberg [00:38]
Yeah, yes, it's 100% humid right now. It's been like, raining all day, and this, like, we had a heat wave earlier in the week, over the weekend, and then it was like, you know, 95 degrees. And then I think it was Monday, it was like, 60. Yeah, huge swing.
Mark Shriner [01:00]
That's a huge that's a huge drop. Huge. And for people who live like in places like Arizona, like 95 is nothing. But for people who live in Minnesota or Washington, we're like, maybe five days a year it gets over 90 and people like, okay, maybe we need to buy an air conditioner.
Jeff Wenberg [01:12]
Yeah, yeah. Our it was like, Oh, please don't go out during this time, you know, for the air conditioner, because, boy, that's a much needed accessory during summer.
Mark Shriner [01:23]
Well, no pun intended, but I'm looking forward to having a cool conversation with you about marketing, because, to me, right now, the marketing landscape is kind of going through this massive evolution revolution, you know, with all the dynamics new types of market paradigms, but also mostly because of AI and what AI is doing, and how people how people's search patterns are changing. And I particularly want to focus with you on how, you know you can create some great offers, and you can get some initial traction, but after a while, it's very difficult to scale and then and then we'll just kind of see where that conversation goes. But before we get started, let me ask you this. I think you, you know, you had a music background at one point, and then you decided to go to the dark side and come over in the business world and get into marketing. How did that come about?
Jeff Wenberg [02:14]
Well, I got fired for the first time.
Mark Shriner [02:17]
That'll do it. Yeah. That's it. Go to the dark side, yeah.
Jeff Wenberg [02:21]
So, yeah, I like, I actually had moved to Nashville to pursue music, and I was working temp jobs, and because it was just like, we weren't making any money with music, it was like, I need to pay rent. Had this job where it's processing automatic debit payments for people's like, car loans and stuff. It was just like, mind numbingly boring. And I emailed my wife because I had, like, calculated how many hours it would take to pay off, like my car or something like that. And it was, like, three years or something. And I was just like, I just knew there was more for me than that. And I emailed her how dumb I thought the job was and whatever. And actually ended up emailing my boss, whose name started with similar letters, and so it auto populated my boss, and I didn't see it, and I sent her the message, so they fired.
Mark Shriner [03:10]
That's a little life lesson there. Yeah,
Jeff Wenberg [03:12]
right. So I've never made that mistake again, and it actually ended up being a really good thing, because at the same time, I had just started like, learning this new thing that I had found called Internet marketing. And it was like, okay, and Fiverr had just become a thing where, you know, like, you could put your yourself on there for different jobs that people might need you to do. And I kept seeing all these people doing voiceovers, and it's like, well, I mean, I have the recording gear so I could make them at least sound better. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm a radio DJ or whatever, but you almost are. But it was just, like, exactly, exactly, they just sounded so bad that I was like, that's maybe my angle is, like, the sound will be better. And like, within a couple weeks I had got me, like, within a couple days, got my first gig, and then a couple weeks, had made enough from those gigs that I had replaced my temp job income. And it was like, I just can't. When I got fired, I was like, I can't go back to doing this mind-numbing stuff. And so, like, within maybe a month, I was up to what I was making at the temp jobs. And so, I quit that. And just as I was doing these videos, people started asking, like, can you do the or, sorry, voiceovers. People were like, can you do the videos with them? I was like, Sure, of course I can. Even though I was like, I don't know, like, right? I'll figure out how to do it, because, like, I want to make more money. And so, as I started doing this, it, it was, it was like, super fun, and it's, it's a creative outlet. And so, as I started seeing like, wow, if I work harder here, I can actually make more money, whereas at music, I can work super hard, and nobody cares. But it did set me up to have a really good transition into, like, this space of marketing, because I. You know, I didn't know that I was like marketing, when I was trying to get people to listen to our music or to come out to shows and all of that kind of stuff. And so, I just took to it naturally because I had been doing it for so many years.
Mark Shriner [05:13]
Well, that's awesome. And then when you made the evolution from, you know, doing voiceovers and videos and actually starting to do, like online advertising. You know, where did you get started? Because even, even that's kind of a bit broad.
Jeff Wenberg [05:26]
Yeah, so after the video voice over, I got hired at a company called Lead Pages, and I was, like, early on in the team there, where they were, like a newer company, and I was team, team member number 11. And in three years, I think we went from 11 to, like 175 and like 45,000 paying customers it. So, it was like a rocket ship. So, I learned a ton about, like, actual digital marketing there, because, like, we were, like, full tilt, just balls to the wall, like doing a ton of stuff every day. And it was, like, it was cool. And then from there, moved in, like, learned a lot of, you know, content marketing and stuff, and then moved to another company called Zipify apps, where I was the director of marketing, and that's where I really, like, started having to do, like, the paid stuff I had started getting into it at lead pages, because I could see, just like, you need to know how to do this, if you like, want to get traffic essentially right. And then at Zipify, I started taking over that for the company, and, like, really digging into that and learning that and how it all kind of works together. And then I moved to a company called sales message, where it's a texting platform where I'm just, like, building out, like, the entire, you know, kind of ecosystem with ads and webinars and all of that stuff. So had, like, a career where I've had to do, like, literally everything. So it's been kind of cool to have that experience, because then I can see how all the pieces fit together, and then I can help my clients and stuff be I, it's just easy for me to see the whole because I've had to do it all.
Mark Shriner [07:01]
So, for most of your the online advertising you've done, is it B2B or B2C?
Jeff Wenberg [07:09]
I've done both. I personally like B2C more, just because it's, you don't have to like you're advertising to the buyer, versus like B2B, it's like, well, like, I gotta kind of get them in my pipeline, and then, you know, work them through there. It's harder to find like the if you're like, as an example, we advertise to like CEO’s or CMO’s, it's harder to find just those people. So, it makes it a little more tricky and convoluted.
Mark Shriner [07:39]
Right? And maybe those are your target people, but they are not always the key decision maker, because a lot of times it's, you know, buying by committee and, you know, and you have several stakeholders, etc. So okay, so let's focus on B2C. What are some of the, you know, the key things that you should look at when you're putting together, an attractive B2C offer online and in what are some of the key platforms that you would look at?
Jeff Wenberg [08:08]
Yeah, I think, like, when you're thinking about the offer, a lot like this has just been my experience. Like a lot of times, people put together offers that are fine, okay, the issue that I always see, though, is the communication of the value of that offer. For example, that's actually, yeah, so that's actually where I have my clients usually start when they they're like, Man, I just like, can I get this thing to work? I'll see the offer and be like, well, the stuff you're giving them is totally fine. Like, I don't even have anything that I would have you change, but like, how you said that I did not even understand what this was supposed to do for me. So, we always start with, like, the messaging, and we connect it with people's problems. And I call them, like, action oriented problems. Those are the things that they're like out there right now, like Googling and YouTubing and like, how do I solve this problem like they're out there putting in effort to try and solve it? How do we connect what we do with that problem, or that set of problem? And that's usually where, where I have people start, because usually that's not dialed in, and then they can't figure out why people don't want to buy their stuff. And usually it's because the people they don't see that as a viable option for the problem. They're currently on.
Mark Shriner [09:21]
Yeah, because they're looking to solve a problem, not by this widget, because they don't even know that widget exists, or exactly what it's called. But let's back up, and can you give me an example of an offer that was a compelling offer? Well, not compelling. It was attractive in terms of what it was made up of, but it was not effectively communicated to his target audience.
Jeff Wenberg [09:46]
Yeah. So, I have a client where we kind of redid a lot of his stuff, and he had started out and he was like teaching other marketers, or like other marketing automation people like, how to actually become a marketing automation specialist, right? And for a while it worked, and he was riding off of a lot of authority he had built up from other positions he held at companies and that kind of stuff. But as he moved farther away from that authority, his like the audience started getting colder and colder, and people were like, buying less and sticking around less. And he called me, and he was like, yo, dude, I'm thinking about getting a job and kind of thrown in the towel.
Mark Shriner [10:31]
Yeah, but the place I was working at where I got fired, they're hired, right?
Jeff Wenberg [10:36]
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And how we changed it. He didn't really change anything he was doing. He just changed who he was talking to. And he changed it from like being like marketing automation focus to data collection. And he's got fancier terms for this, but like, he was, like, nobody really understands what marketing automation means. And I really just, like, literally love building forms and figuring out how to collect clean data from the get go. Because what usually happens is most people, like, they'll just throw a form up and not put any thought into it, and then, like, it just creates a mess that I always have to come in and fix. So if I could teach people how to, like, actually collect clean data from the get-go. It really empowers everything else you're doing. And what we found is, when he started talking like that, and then focusing it on the CEOs of companies, it like, literally, people are chasing him to pay him. Instead of him having to be like, oh, you know, I got to add a bunch of stuff to this to try and get people to buy it. They're like, Oh my gosh. Like, how can we get started and, like, can we move faster, you know, like, all of that kind of stuff. And so, he went from, you know, like, almost holding to, you know, being back in business. I think it was like four months, he was up to, like, 20, 25k per month, and that was just by the same
Mark Shriner [11:58]
Changing the copy of his ad, or the messaging, the verbiage of that.
Jeff Wenberg [12:02]
So, the messaging, not just of his ad, of just how he was talking about it in general. So, it could be ads, it could be conversations, it could be emails, it could be blog posts, anything. He just changed it from marketing automation to data collection, and he obviously makes it sound cooler than that, than the just data collection.
Mark Shriner [12:22]
Marketing automation, sounds cool, but again, it's one of those things like, well, what does it mean?
Jeff Wenberg [12:27]
But exactly? Yeah, exactly. And so that's, that's what we did, and it really had a huge impact, both on his business and also on the value he was communicating. Because he could, what was, it was like a side benefit is, as he started seeing more people wanting this thing, he started having them telling him what the value of it was. So, he's like, Oh my gosh. Like, I never even thought of that. I just thought it was this over here, but they're telling me they're getting so much value from this one thing over here. Like, it all just became so much more clear. And what ended up happening, and I see this happen a lot, is people get more confident about their offers when they're more able to communicate them clearly, and then it makes it easier to sell it, because people are like, Oh, I totally get it, versus like, you know, like, when you're, you know, I help people live their best life. And, you know, just get out of the muck and, you know, they're burned like, they just use all of those, like, cliche, kind of like descriptors of whatever that it's like, what does that even mean? That, like, I feel like, creates an internal just like, lack of confidence when you're, like, struggling to figure it out, yeah, like, how to talk about it, whether, again, whether that's in an ad, whether that's in a face to face conversation, or a sales call or whatever. But when you're like, crystal clear on what it is that you do and how it helps a specific problem, it's, it's like, night and day difference and like, people pick up on that kind of energy, you know, like, you've, I'm sure you've met people where you're just like, man, that dude or gal or whoever they really like, have something that is, like, very, very compelling to me, and usually it's confident.
Mark Shriner [14:11]
Yeah, no, I have had both sides where you ask somebody what they do, and they take a really long time trying to explain it, and at the end, you're like, I still don't understand what they do, but I don't want to put it, I don't want to ask it again, because they've already taken a long time exactly, exactly. And then you have people that are very, very specific. You know, in the case of breeze docs, the company that I'm running, we help small and medium sized businesses optimize their RFP response process, which allows them to win more business. Yeah, I mean, it's that's for us. It's pretty, pretty simple. Hopefully you understand that.
Jeff Wenberg [14:47]
Well, I don't understand all the acronyms, but I would assume the people in your audience probably do. Yeah,
Mark Shriner [14:54]
The people who were targeting, who are, you know, business leaders for small me sized businesses, if they're participating in requests. For proposals. They get it because they're a pain in the backside, and we kind of make that pain go away. So then what is your process? You kind of look at what they're currently doing in terms of their communications and their ads, and then you just kind of help them kind of crystallize it into something that is more appropriate for their target audience.
Jeff Wenberg [15:24]
Yeah. So essentially, the process that I usually take people through is like, more. So, okay, they come to me with a problem. They're like, hey, my funnel is just not converting anymore. My ads aren't working. Nothing's really working. Sales are going down. So usually, yes, I'll look at everything and see, like, look at the data of, okay, from somebody seeing an ad or a piece of content, are people clicking through? Okay? What's the click-through rate? Are they then doing whatever the action is there? And, like, just follow the data all the way through, because that, that could be, you know, an indicator of, maybe there's a technical problem, but most of the time in that process, when I'm just looking at stuff, it's like, I didn't, like you said, I don't really even know what that means. And then, so if I can't understand what it means, obviously no one else can. So that's probably why, like, things aren't, you know, they're not selling and so what I do from there is I take them through, you know, a pretty it's like a framework I developed for just really develop, or trying to uncover, you know, who we're truly talking to. And I don't mean like, you know, a mom of 40 with 2.5 kids who makes $30,000 a year, like that kind of crap, like that, that stuff. It's like, okay, it's good to have a rough idea. Or, you know, like, CMOs of fortune, 500 companies. Like, okay, it's good to have that kind of idea. But more importantly, okay, what problems are those people having? And like, what is it like already rolling in their heads? And like, what kind of stories are they already, you know, just running as they're laying in bed trying to figure out how to solve their problems, so that we can use that and join the momentum that they already have, rather than try and stop the momentum and be like, No, you know, like, that's not why whatever, like, we want to just join the momentum and start and join in the conversation they're already having by using the problems and stuff.
Mark Shriner [17:15]
You know, under traditional SEO and SEM, for the last, you know, 15, 20, years, you could do that, and then you would, you know, optimize your content for those keywords or those kind of searches, especially the long tail searches. And for SEM, you'd buy the, you know, the ad words, or you know the search results for those long tail searches, and you know position yourself around there. But a lot of times when people have those problems that are there, they you know that they're kicking around in their head. Now, instead of going to Google or to Bing or to Yahoo or Baidu or Naver, they will go to chat, CPT or perplexity and so you could buy all the AdWords you want, but they're not going to see you on chat, GPT or perplexity, even on Gemini cloud, etc. So how does that change the advertisers game?
Jeff Wenberg [18:21]
A good question, and I don't think anyone's really solved this problem, so to speak. The only kind of protection against that that I've seen is if you can really like, dial in your advertising, so it's connecting to problems that people are looking for. Because if it's if it's like a ad, let's say that is just like, you know, get a 14 day free trial. Nobody really cares. But if like, let's say like you said, RFP is right, yeah, if it was an RFP. So I don't know if this is the exact language, but, like, get more of your RFP is accepted in 15 days or less. You know?
Mark Shriner [19:09]
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's pretty good offer, considering you don't really, if you're not familiar with the space, but people want to get their RFP accepted. Is probably not the right word, but, but win more RFP or, okay, for sure, cut your completion time by 80%.
Jeff Wenberg [19:23]
Okay, like, where it's, like, hyper relevant to what they want, yeah, and just calling that stuff out, that's really the only way I've seen to safeguard against all of this stuff. And you can't always, you know, because, like you said, people are getting just more and more, myself included, just going to chat GPT or whatever, and using that, I think he will..
Mark Shriner [19:45]
The ChatGPT will give you results. So, for example, right now, if you Well, I'm not sure if you today, but yesterday, I Googled, what are the top 10 RFP response platforms for SMBs and breeze docs? Came up number three, all right, and so and so. A lot of the behind-the-scenes kind of, I don't want to call it SEO, but I would call it LLM, oh, yeah, large language model optimization, but it some of the stuff that we've been doing clearly works. And then I even asked the two search engines. It was ChatGPT and perplexity. I asked them, what would breeze docs have to do to increase its ranking on this search query? And it gave me some really good they both gave me some very good and consistent advice with each other, not necessarily easy to implement, because the companies in position one and two have been around for a lot longer and they have a lot deeper pockets, but it's being pretty transparent, you know.
Jeff Wenberg [20:53]
I'm gonna have to feel that tip. Yeah, that's a good idea. Just like, yeah. What could I do to rank in ChatGPT or whatever. That's a really good idea.
Mark Shriner [21:04]
But, yeah, be careful, because then the LLM might put you out of a job, right? Because, yeah, I don't need to ask you, Jeff. I can just ask now we still need to implement and all that stuff. What are some of the more interesting products or services that you've helped sell?
Jeff Wenberg [21:21]
Yeah, kind of run the gamut. Just through my career at companies and with clients, I've helped people from everything from like hangover pills
Mark Shriner [21:33]
I could use some of those. So, what was the, what was the, the buzz line of that that not you don't want to say hangover pill, you would? You want to say, what the benefit of you know.
Jeff Wenberg [21:44]
Yeah, I, honestly, I don't. It was so long ago, I don't even remember. Did you ever try them? But, oh, yeah, absolutely. And it was hit and miss. Sometimes it would be like, Okay, I feel pretty good. Other times it'd be like, yo. They'll feel like that.
Mark Shriner [21:58]
I want my money back, all my money back.
Jeff Wenberg [22:00]
The only way around that one is to just like, stop drinking. And you know, it's been, it's been an interesting journey, how that affects everything else, but that's another story.
Mark Shriner [22:12]
I'd be interested in talking with you, maybe not in depth right now, but other time I just, I did one month without beer and physical, mental everything. My performance just went like, hockey stick man, and I'm like, Whoa. And what I've been kind of reflecting on in this has nothing to do with marketing, but this is show this the growth has podcast is about also it's about personal excellence and growing professional and personal performance. But I was reflecting on this the other day, and I was like, Okay, so when I wasn't drinking, I was also eating really well, and I was sleeping really well, and then you get this, like, one plus one plus one equals five, all of a sudden. And then I kind of, I re engaged with alcohol for a couple weeks and first couple days were fine, but then then I just started making all these bad food is bad food decisions, you know, just eating garbage, you know, like, you know, just ride food stop, and picking some fish and chips up or whatever, and then, and then staying up late, watching YouTube videos, and then being tired in the morning. And then it's like, what am I doing, you know? And then, yeah, and then, because I wake up and feel tired, I wouldn't really, I really wouldn't work. Want to work out, because I work out every morning. So I'd go to the gym, and I wouldn't be very, you know, because I track my performance, and my performance would be down, and I'd be like, you know, I don't know, man, maybe I should take a couple days off. Just kind of like, it's just like, this spiral, right? Yeah, it's really crazy. I mean, how long have you, you know, been abstaining.
Jeff Wenberg [23:42]
So, your journey sounds so similar to mine. I did about 70 days awesome for, like, some other it was more just like, I'm starting to try and, like, fix some sleep issues, yeah, which I was using chat GPT, for which it was, like, fantastic, because I've been I've done, like, sleep doctors, sleep studies, all of that kind of stuff, and, like, nothing. And in that process, I was like, yeah, man, I think I'm gonna cut out alcohol and caffeine and see if I can really get the sleep under wraps. And so that's been about as good as I've gotten it for a really long time. And then, like you, maybe couple weeks ago, I had reached the mark that I was shooting for, and it was like, Okay, let me, you know, see how it goes. Because I wasn't sure, do I want to just keep going or whatever, have some drinks every now and again. And I was like, let me just see what happens. And same thing, sleep, any like, any of the days that I actually drank sleep was awful. And one of the times it was like, I had, like, maybe two beers over the course of a couple hours in an afternoon and that night, like, just awful sleep. And it tracked back to having the booth, and then with everything else, it was like, I don't know. Man, it's just not like you. Yeah, like you said, when you were sleeping good, you were eating good, and you were functioning at a higher level. And that's kind of fun, especially as, like, we get older, of like, wow, sleep is, like, actually kind of the driver of all of that. So if, if that is kind of messing it up for me, I'm just like, I was actually having this internal conversation today of just like, yeah, like, I enjoy having drinks with my friends and stuff, but I think I'll just probably not at this point for a while, and until I lock down the sleep thing, and then maybe at some point in the future.
Mark Shriner [25:34]
You know, I'm at the same point. It's like I tried to re-engage and wasn't happy with the results. So, I'm back on the teetotalling side. Magnesium really helped. My sleep helped me. Just take, you know, there's a couple different types of supplements. I think there's like, three different types of magnesium supplements, and that helped me, but, but it's, it also was really important that, because I like it, like to get together with my friends once in a while as well. But I found some really good non alcoholic beer, beers that I actually once I just start drinking them, I almost forget that they're non alcoholic. Yeah, you know thing, yeah. And you know so anyway, so say hangover medicine was one.
Jeff Wenberg [26:21]
Just a little pug for this one, the La Croix lemon cello. So that's actually, so the one thing with the NA beers, they are way better than they were, like, a couple of years ago. They're amazing. But I was kind of like, because I'm also like, you know, tracking macros and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah? Just like, oh man, that's killing my numbers. oh, yeah. And so, I started having, like, we were on vacation, and I found one of these, 12 pack of these. I was like, I'll get those and drink those while everyone else is drinking. What are they? And it's like a sparkling water. It's just like a flavored sparkling water. And what I found is kind of crazy is fill up a low ball with ice, put that in it. And it literally was, for me, at least, like, just, like, drinking a cocktail. That's awesome. And it was like, that is what I'm gonna do. And, yeah, so far, like, instead of grabbing a beer or cocktail at night, like, that's what I'll do, I'll just, like, same cup, fill it with some, like, a good ice cube, or, like, you know, some ice or whatever, and then have one of those. And it's not like I'm tricking myself, but it's like, kind of, it seems to work. Good enough.
Mark Shriner [27:29]
No, no. But, I mean, if you think about a lot of a lot of our habits or behaviors are basically, you know, situational and with you when you're around your friends, or some kind of, like, I can go into a business meeting, never want to have a drink during a business meeting, right? Yeah, but you make it a networking event in the evening, and it's all a sudden everybody else has a drink in their hands. I want to have something my hand, man. And it's almost like, whatever is there, it could be water, it could be beer, whatever. I'm just going to drink it fast, because that's, that's my habit, right? So I've had the same experience with sparkling water, or, like I said, the NA beers, where I'm just feeling like, hey, man, this is awesome.
Jeff Wenberg [28:06]
So, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Mark Shriner [28:09]
But so you did hang over cures. What's something else that you've done?
Jeff Wenberg [28:14]
Yeah, so I've helped a lady who was like a horse trainer with her offer see another lady was a, like a, remember what kind of therapist? But she did therapy, um, I've helped a woman who was a declutter coach. I could do some, um, yeah. Uh, another sleep uh, like a, she's like a sleep doctor, yeah, yeah. Just trying to think a lot of a lot of people that I work with are, like transformational, like, they provide some kind of transformation, and that's the kind of stuff that I like to mess around with.
Mark Shriner [28:52]
Well, give me one more example of one of those people who came to you and they weren't happy with their marketing, and you know, what was their messaging at the time, and then when you were done working with them, what was the end messaging that allowed them to become more successful?
Jeff Wenberg [29:11]
Yeah, so I don't know the exact like, before and after for, like, the horse trainer or any of the therapists and stuff, just off the top of my head, but like, I do know the horse trainer lady, she was in the middle of a launch, and I just she, we were in a group together, and I was like, yeah, let me, you know, I can see some things that would definitely help. Took her through the process. Um, everything about her stuff was all around, like, the program and, like, here's what you're gonna get. It's like, four modules and, you know, worksheets and everything was about that stuff. And it's like, nobody cares about the stuff. They want the transformation. And so what we focused her, her pitch on, was more of, okay, if you're, you know, a barrel racer, and you're trying to. Who, and obviously, I don't know the language, because I'm not a, like, a barrel racer, but get around the like, the barrels faster without like the horse they she was describing it where, like, they do something, where maybe, like, they pull back, or something like that, and that slows them down. So she helps them, like, figure out how to, like, read the horse, so they can, like, help guide the horse to faster times. It was like, that's what we need to be communicating the huge problem. We need to make them feel that of, like, slow times. And all of the money you spent with horse trainers trying to, like, get the speed faster so that they feel that, like, yeah, I've totally done that. I call it the O S moment, if you know what I mean. Like, yeah, I've totally done that. And then after that, connecting with what they want, like, faster times and, you know, smoother racing, being able to, like, actually guide the horse and all of that kind of stuff, and then just putting it together in in this program, that's like, the last little bit, like the logistic and I have this program that will walk you through step by step how to do that, and that's like all you need to really mention about the actual stuff.
Mark Shriner [31:06]
Okay, so if I can kind of crystallize or just kind of, you know, draw that the key message from what we've been talking about for the last 30 minutes is that oftentimes people are marketing a program or features, and you should really focus on the benefits, or at least focused on the addressing the problem that your target audience, in their minds, thinks that that they need think that they need to solve. So, if I'm your target, okay, so if I'm your target buyer, what am I thinking of when I'm looking for the solution for my what it is I'm trying to solve?
Jeff Wenberg [31:50]
So, that's not like what you what you know the answer is, what you have to meet them, where they are with, what they think the answer is, right? Because they might not like a jar, good example, knowledge or et cetera, they might not even know that they have that bigger problem that you do know they have, right? Does that make sense.
Mark Shriner [32:08]
Totally, so let me ask you this. I mean, because you're working with a wide variety of customers, how can you reverse engineer what their target market is either looking for in terms of benefits, or is what? What's the problem that they're trying to solve? How do you reverse engineer that?
Jeff Wenberg [32:28]
Yeah, so most people are like, oh, when I say this, but the easiest way is to talk to people who are your ideal customer and literally ask them, like, you know what? What is it you're trying to do? Like, what do you want? Why haven't you been able to solve it yet? Solve it yet? What are you doing to try and solve it? How does that make you feel? You know, like, literally just diving deep. And the key is, excuse me, like letting them talk, just listening to what they say, and then you use that, like what they say in all of your copy, in your ads, in your videos, all of that kind of stuff. Because if they're saying it away that like, that's how they're describing it, most times, people that are similar to them are gonna totally resonate with how they're saying things. So I literally like to have my people copy and paste what people say when they find like, ooh, that's one that I keep hearing. You know, it might be not exactly the same, but similar, like, a similar issue. Cool, cut and paste. Cut and Paste.
Mark Shriner [33:31]
Awesome. Do you use any kind of, like, analytic tools or automation tools.
Jeff Wenberg [33:40]
For like the research part of it?
Mark Shriner [33:41]
The research part and or for the like, content creation or the distribution.
Jeff Wenberg [33:47]
Yeah. So, like, you can use any AI tools, like, they're great. And the other thing for just like, the research kind of, you know, building on that, like talking to people is the best. Then after that, you know, like looking at other people in the market, and then, like going, if you see one of their ads as an example, like a competitor, see what people are complaining about in the comments, in groups, see what people are complaining about. And like, it's all the things people are complaining about that are the fodder for your better messaging and your better offer. And then what's pretty cool about and this is the way I like to use AI. I like to use it as a brainstorming partner, rather than like, hey, write this whole thing for me, for scratch or from scratch. I like to give it like, here's everything I've learned about these people so far, and, and, and, or transcript, like, just put the whole transcript in there. Can you pull out some, like, you know, some commonalities you see between all of these people? Can you pull out the and list out all of the problems that they're telling me that they have, and, like, getting it to just do that kind of stuff, versus, like, what most people. Know that, you know, don't necessarily have a background in this kind of stuff. Do is like, hey, tell me what the problems of this person might be. And then they take chat, GPT answer, and it's like, they build out all of their stuff, and then nobody wants it because, like, it doesn't know when to go deeper or anything if you don't tell it to and that's why I love using it like that. And then that's how I actually like to use it for content creation too. Is, hey, here's what I'm thinking. I want to make something like this. Here's a couple examples. Maybe, if I like, have either another one or maybe a video from somebody else. I want to make something like this. Can you help me come up with something that puts in this point, this point and this point, and connects to this problem. Yeah, that's how I like to do it. But yeah, outside of that, I still go old school on distribution and that kind of stuff, just because I usually like focus on just like one, one platform.
Mark Shriner [35:53]
So what right now for B2C and you, I mean, you talked a lot about services. I mean, well, you have the hangover cure. You talked about horse training and sleep doctor. And I think there was one other one there. What are the most effective platforms for reaching consumers right now?
Jeff Wenberg [36:14]
Yeah, I mean, I personally still think like meta, Facebook, Instagram, just because it's the most advanced algorithm and all of that kind of stuff. And I'm meaning more specifically for like paid you can do it organically too. Second, I would say probably YouTube. And depending on your age and who you're trying to reach, maybe TikTok. I personally just tick tock is over my head, and I don't quite understand it
Mark Shriner [36:46]
I actually started my subscription a couple months ago, and my kids were laughing at me. But I use it for motivational tidbits like okay, say I am, you know, between sets at the gym, and I just need a little pick me up and I can go on. And I type in gym motivation. And I got, like, David Gawkins going get the boats, lift the log, I gotta do something, man, yeah, or Rogan saying something, or the rock. And I'm like, oh man, okay, I gotta get going. Yeah, there's gym motivation. There's actually, when it came to, like, my month of no beer and stuff, every once in a while when I was feeling like, you know, it'd be nice if I and then go on and I would just, you know, do a search for, you know, 30 days no drinking or whatever. And then you get, like, these really famous celebrities that haven't had a drink for years, and then they're saying that all this motivational stuff. And it's like, man, if those, if they can do that, you know? Why can't? Yeah, it's like, think about the pressure you that they have in terms of the social life, and then, yeah, saying, hey, come on, we got this party. We got that party. I'm like, Man, I can, I can say no for a couple more days, you know? So, yeah, TikTok is pretty cool for that. In terms of me, I know, I know that other people can go, there's different rabbit holes that you can go down, apparently, but I don't want to see that stuff on my search history, so I'm really careful.
Jeff Wenberg [38:08]
Yeah. And, like, you know, of course, like, for more B2B stuff LinkedIn is, is where it's at, for sure.
Mark Shriner [38:15]
It’s interesting. So, we were having no luck at all with AdWords, and then we went on LinkedIn, and we were, we were killing it for a while, and then all sudden, we actually increased our spend and got fewer, fewer hits or fewer demo requests. And I'm wondering, like, what could change where in the beginning you're getting, let's just throw out a number four to five demos a week on a relatively low budget, and then, then all of a sudden, nothing. And we're, you know, or one or two, and we, you know, we triple the budget. What do you think could be going on there?
Jeff Wenberg [38:52]
It's a great question. I don't necessarily have an answer for you, but yeah. I mean, it's pretty typical, when you add budget, that results decrease. And that's like any ad platform that I've ever worked on, that's always been the case the more you spend. It's some weird kind of I don't even know, like, if you were looking at it on the graph, it must be like a conversion point where then like, spend goes up and conversions go down due to something, and I don't really know what, other than it's probably trying to find more people that are outside of, like, the core group they know are converters for like, whatever You have to offer, and then they convert less because they're a little more cold. And then maybe the messaging is not dialed in, or maybe, like a funnel isn't just as efficient as it could be. The only, only way that I've seen people scale is when it's just like, it's just. So dialed in that there's like, it's airtight without experiencing that kind of thing. And even then, I've still heard them say, like, well, I could only get up to this much, which, you know, is a lot, like some people are like, I could only get it up to, like, 100 grand a day. And it's like, I mean, dude, that's crazy. That's a lot and but they were like, we wanted to scale further, but we couldn't it just tapped out.
Mark Shriner [40:26]
Well, yeah, maybe we'll have to ask chat GPT what's going on.
Jeff Wenberg [40:28]
Exactly. Cool.
Mark Shriner [40:31]
Well, hey, any anything else that you want to talk about and share with our audience?
Jeff Wenberg [40:35]
I think we've, we've covered a lot of ground, right? The biggest thing is just keep things simple and connect with where people are at and bridge the gap for them, instead of talking from the, you know, the other side of the bridge.
Mark Shriner [40:50]
I think it sounds so simple, but people get caught up and get in their own way. Because, you know, the challenge is, when you're a deep subject matter expert, you do know all this jargon, and you see all this great stuff that you've built, and you want to package that and show everybody look at all the great things that we've built and but that's not what they're looking for. They're looking for solve my problem. So, you got to talk. You got to meet them to where they're at, as they say, right? So yeah, Jeff, it's been great talking with you, man. I appreciate you man, I appreciate you reaching out and coming on the broadcast podcast, and if you're out in the Seattle area, let me know.
Jeff Wenberg [41:25]
Will do All right, thanks, Mark. Appreciate it.
Mark Shriner [41:28]
Take care. Cheers.
